Emails from Founders

Tufts has had a team since the fall of 1972. They beat Clark in their first ever game in October of 1972 (note Walter Belding's date comment 12 messages below).

Dave Rosenberg
E-men
2001

plus ... clipped from TK's awesome Condors aricle:
"By December of 1975 there were fifty-three known teams. Of that thirty-nine were college teams, and six club teams."

Tufts, Rutgers, Clark, Cornell, RPI, UNH and a few others all started in the fall of 72 (note Walter Belding's date comment 12 messages below). Princeton had a team a year earlier I think, making them the 1st college team. CHS is of course the longest continuing team.

Jim Pistrang (Tufts '76)
2001

The 'Warwick Bears' have been a (college - University of Warwick in England) club for 25 years with continuous, active membership with no breaks or lapses. This is without doubt a British record, but I wondered how this ranks in the European and the World longevity leagues.

I understand that the Santa Barbara Condors celebrated their 25th anniversary in 1999, but what about the other teams mentioned by Jim Pistrang above - do they have an uninterrupted lineage?

It's maybe a little sad to admit it, but the 'Warwick Bears' have never changed their name in all these years and their team strip has always featured the traditional colours of red and black. Both the name and the colours relate to the county of Warwickshire (that's Shakespeare territory, in case you didn't know) whose county symbol is the 'Bear and Ragged Staff'.

Cheers

Sam Neilson
Warwick Bears 1981-1984
... disc player for 20 years and counting ...
2001

It is well established that Rutgers & Princeton played the first college ultimate game on November 6, 1972. (Stork was in that game).

I had thought that one of the first UK teams was at Oxford, started by David "Buddha" Meyer (or Meyers), around 1976, a graduate of Columbia High School, who, after college (Columbia Univ???), did a Masters in England somewhere and started a team.

While the early teams are listed, I think it'd be nice to also note the founders of those teams.

The absolute best source for the 'way' early years of Ultimate is a paper that Larry Schindel wrote. He chronicled primarily the years from 1968 until the early to mid-1970's (i.e., before there was college Ultimate -- I can't remember if he covered college Ultimate, too). I even have a copy in my house *somewhere*, with no guarantees I can find it in a reasonable amount of time. I'll try to remember to look for it. (I've moved 2-3 times since I last read it).

Come to think of it, Larry started a team, too, when he graduated from CHS. Was it Duke? 1972 or 1973?

BTW, I'm sure that the Ivies, Tufts, Rutgers have uninterupted lineage. Possibly RPI, too.

You know, sometime, we all ought to get together, and put it down on paper (or at least on tape), before we forget too much! Larry ought to be included in this, for sure. As well as other active folks from the CHS classes of 1971 thru 1975. (Ed Summers, Joe Barbanel, Bob Evans, Dave Leiwant, Irv Kalb, John Cohn . . . , apologies to the gazillions I am forgetting).

Eric Simon
2001

I checked in with Irv Kalb, my teammate at Rutgers and original member of the Columbia High School team. He adds the following detail:
Stork,

Yes, Princeton did have a team in 1971. They were organized by Jonny Hines (graduate of Columbia High School). In fact, some time during the '71-'72 school year, there was a game at Princeton between the then Columbia High School Varsity Frisbee Team (my group) and that Princeton team. While I can't remember the score, I remember that the Columbia team won easily. I do remember that the Princeton players were way too physical, perhaps because the Princeton team didn't like losing to bunch of high school players. Other than that game, I think that the Princeton team mostly to played amongst themselves - carrying on the tradition of the original CHSVFT. That all changed in 1972 when my group graduated and started competitive college teams. Feel free to pass on this information.

Irv Kalb
2001

Cornell and Yale both started in the fall of '73. Dave Leiwant and I both played at CHS with the older, slower founders of the '72 college teams, but, in fact, graduated in the Spring of '73.

I'm not sure what date Larry will claim for RIT. He was there in '72, but I'm not so sure he actually got a team going then. I know that Cornell's first game ever was in the fall of '73 against Larry's RIT squad, but I'm not sure if it was their first game as well. I do know who won the game.

Irv's comments (forwarded by Stork) include a clear recollection of his CHS team defeating the Princeton team. Of course, that Princeton team didn't have any teams to play against, and there were many more experienced players on that CHS team (Irv, REvans, Joe B, Leiwant, Summers, Schindel, and myself included). It was not at all a surprising result. Irv's memory seems a little shorter concerning a game between his Rutgers team of '72-'73 and the remaining CHS team. The core of the '72 CHS team was gone, starting the early college teams (Irv, REvans, Joe B, Schindel, and Ed Summers were all gone). Irv also had Stork at Rutgers by then. They were certainly considered to be the strongest team in the world by far. That CHS team of myself, Dave Leiwant, Steady Ed Levy, Buddha, Bruce Pietz, Alan Kessler, Adam Ringler, ... pulled off what I still consider one of the greatest Ultimate upsets of all time. None of the Rutgers players seem to remember that game, which took place on grass, directly behind the CHS building.

Regarding Eric's recollection of Buddha's involvement with getting UK Ultimate started: He was at the London School of Economics. I'm pretty sure it was a junior year abroad program, not part of a Masters degree, which would make it the '75-'76 academic year.

A couple of really old teams missing from the list are certainly Hampshire College, one of the early powerhouses, and Webb Institute of Naval Architecture. I'm not sure of the founders, but a possibility at Hampshire would be Dave Dinerman, a CHS alum. Their early star player was Andy Magruer. An early leader of the Webb team was Dave St. Amand. Unfortunately, I don't have any contact info for these folks.

As a final point of information, I'd definitely have to contest TK's history link claiming that the Santa Barbara Condors are the longest continuously operating Ultimate team. The Cornell Buds have certainly been around longer. I'd possibly concede that the Condors have had the overall strongest team over the history of the sport, but I'd still rank the Buds second in that regard, and they existed before TK first picked up a disc with TShep in Santa Barbara.

A final note for anyone looking for particular details, or to fill in any holes in the early history of Ultimate: Dave Leiwant probably knows the stuff better than anyone else. Just check out the original edition of the rules. Irv is listed as missing from the photo, but he was around then. Really, none of those folks played beyond that original year or two besides Leiwant and Irv (Jonny Hines played long enough to start the Princeton team, but stopped playing right after that. The Princeton team really got going when Robert Evans took over in '72.). Unfortunately, Leiwant doesn't do email. He's reachable in the Miami area.

Jon Cohn
June 2001

While I can't really claim to be one of the "founders" of Ultimate, I began playing with the Westport [Connecticut] Ultimate Frisbee Team (WUFT) in the summer of 1976, dragged to a practice in the middle of a downpour by a friend of mine (David Abrams). Deciding that any sport where the participants would willingly play in the middle of a storm must be pretty good, I became a convert. That fall, I organized the University of Pennsylvania's Ultimate Frisbee Team, my most important contribution to that school. WUFT had alot of great players there at the time by the way. Dan Buckley and Ron Kaufman were the two principal organizers, and as I recall, several college teams of the time were led by WUFT members as well.

After a couple of sabbaticals and two knee surgeries (ACL and cartilage), I've been playing with the JJ Finley players in Gainesville, Florida. Now, however, I'm mostly using age and treachery to overcome youth and speed. Gainesville hosts the Frostbreaker Ultimate Tournament every spring, and I'm proud to say that UPenn's team still shows up. I just moved to Jacksonville, FL, at UNF, so if anyone knows of a casual pickup game, please let me know.

Westport's High School (Staples) already had had a team (the source of many college players) for a number of years by 1976, headed by Al Jolley, one of the teachers there, so you might want to check there to see when the team started. I didn't play at the time (heard of it, thought it was a geek sport - what did I know?).

Still throwin' (but creakin' a bit!),

Greg Mead
Sept. 2001

Great site! It's cool to see a timeline.
Steve Anderson, an SJSU Aeronautics Major, coming up from UCSB in 1976 and was wild about a new sport he found, landed and started the San Jose State Clingons. I was recruited to the new team by a physics labmate. Steve was such a power and a positive influence to many, many new players, including myself, that SJSU hosted the first 3 California State Ultimate Championships, now held in Santa Cruz. A little nicer site! Ivy League history is cool. California History is even better. Timeline has been incredible for this local player and witness.
Kicking back and relaxing,

Chas.
Oaks Travel / GalaxSea Cruises
Sept. 2001

I have a little to add about ultimate frisbee at Staples High School in Westport, Ct. Staples played the first interscholastic Ultimate game against some school from New Jersey in the fall of 1972 or the spring of 1973 (possibly Columbia High School). I don't remember the high school, nor do I remember the score or who won. We played in Westport and I was mostly on the sidelines while the likes of Bob Lacy were mostly on the field.

Al Joley was the faculty advisor (we were not a recognized sport but rather were a club). You can probably find Al's email address from Bob Lacy's brother Tom who occasionally played with us at UCONN.

Ron Kaufman, also a Westport Ultimate Alum 1974, Brown 1978 was also instrumental in developing Ultimate Frisbee on an international level. You might contact him as well.

David Abrams
Oct. 2001

The team that Staples played in '72 or '73 was (I think) the HS in Maplewood NJ (Maplewood HS?). Al Jolly somehow knew about the school; maybe he went there. I think that Staples won the first game, and then we were challenged to a rematch, which we lost. Maybe Al will remember better than I do.

Bob Lacy
Oct. 2001

Brown University, founder, Ron Kaufman, team first created in 1974. Ron went to Staples High School where he was introduced to the sport by Al Jolley. Later, Ron founded the mail order company Discovering the World, and organized the first Frisbee Friendship Tours to China and the USSR.

Ron Kaufman
June 2002

I just looked at the emails at the end of the Founder's page. The detail in the information and the timeline clearly show that this page was a labor of love. I thank the collectors of the information for all of their hard work. The page makes it fun to reminisce about old friends and ultimate players and to see where ultimate has gone.

Just one point of clarification: To the best of my knowledge, the Rutgers-Princeton game in November 1972 was not the first inter-collegiate game. That distinction goes to Clark and Tufts who played each other in October. (note Walter Belding's date comment below)

Also, I would like to add that I organized a team at the City College of New York in 1975. The team played a few games in Central Park - losing every one. I do not believe that the team lasted more than one year.

Michael Miller
June 2002

Ed Davis, myself and many other people were part of the original UCONN team. Ed provided the spark, I was a bit of a catalyst for players and skills. Many other people were heavily active. The UCONN team continued through the years (still current as far as I know). Players moved on and started other teams (John "Moose" Fidler - South Windsor Connecticut; Ted (80-B) Bazenas - Naugatuck, CT; Torry 'Duce' Hack - Eastern Edge Ozone Throwers - Greenwich, CT [along with Bucknell players].

The origninal UConn team, once graduated, formed The DUKES. This was one of the first eastcoast CLUB teams and I believe the first to tour Europe playing Belgium and French teams in 1979. The DUKES just finished the first Grand Masters tourney two weeks ago.

Dan Buckley
June 2002

It's great to see some of the old names and remember the early days of College Ultimate. I feel the need to correct a bit of historical information regarding the first inter-collegiate Ultimate Frisbee game in New England. It was, indeed, between Clark and Tufts, and was played at Clark. But the date of the game was April 21, 1973. We talked about playing in the fall of 1972, but never got organized enough to do that. Later that spring, Rutgers came to New England and played Clark and Tufts. It was in the fall of 1973 that Ultimate really got going in New England. Clark played 13 games during the 73-74 academic year (winning 9).

Walter Belding
Clark University 1972-1976
June 2002
--------------------------

Great to hear from Walter (hi Walter!!!), but he is WRONG! I am absolutely certain that we (Tufts) played Clark in the fall of 1972, and I am equally certain that it happened 1 week AFTER the Rutgers-Princeton game. I remember talking to Irv on the phone, telling him we were going to play Clark, and he begged-insisted-threatened me to play it a week after his game instead of earlier.

Jim Pistrang (Tufts '76)
--------------------------

Yes, I'm sure that Jim is correct here. I know for a fact that the Rutgers - Princeton game was the first college Ultimate game. We (Rutgers) were planning on playing it earlier and tried to get publicity for it through our school newspaper (the Rutgers Targum). I went to talk to the publisher about it - and it was his suggestion to move it to the anniversary of the first football game between Rutgers and Princeton on November 6th. The publisher also suggested that we play the game on the same site as the first football game. This had been turned into a parking lot behind the main gym - and we wound up playing it there. Some day when I have time, I'll post a copy of the article in the New York Times that reported on the game. So, while I honestly don't remember doing it, I'm sure I did beg-insist-plead-threaten Jim about their first game between Tufts and Clark.

Irv Kalb
--------------------------

Yeah, I've got most of what came out on that game in print (Local, college, NY Times, SI). There was a lot of TV coverage too. We were blown away. Great PR job by Irv, Geoff and apparently the RU publicity guy. After that we thought, " Man, that's just the first game! By the end of the season, we'll need to use the stadium!"

Dan 'Stork' Roddick
--------------------------

As a footnote the game was held on the 1972 Presidential Election day (Nixon vs George McGovern) and referees were planned for the game. Myself and Dave Leiwant (I think) were to serve. I hadn't received my absentee ballot up at Tufts before I left and so, instead of being at the game, I spent the entire day at the county courthouse in Newark getting a replacement ballot.

Unfortunately then, I missed the game - but I think Dave did referee. One of you attendees may want to call attention to this unique instance of referees in Ultimate, and positively identify who they were - since I didn't make it. I don't think another game after that one even considered them.

I know that we had planned to play Clark before the game, but Jimmy told me that Irv and Rutgers really wanted us to wait until after their game. But, I don't remember rescheduling with Clark that Fall for after the Rutgers-Princeton game. When I get a chance I'll dig through my Frisbee archives to see if I've got anything from November '72. My recollection is our first three games were the Clark-Hampshire-RPI road trip we took in Spring '73.

Ed Summers
--------------------------

Yes, Dave Leiwant did referee that game. I was the official timer. I believe much of the purpose of the referee was merely showmanship for the tv crew, and involved serving as master of ceremonies for the opening flip to determine who'd pull. The main network coverage was by a New York crew (I don't remember if it was ABC or NBC), and the primary sportscaster was ex-Yankee Jim Bouton. I'm pretty sure Dave was actively moving around on the field during the game, but I don't recall him directly making calls (Dave, Irv, Stork, any clearer recollections?).

JC
--------------------------

I wonder how extensive Irv's refereeing experience is ???

CHS, in the school year of 1973-74, played an awful game at East Bruswick High School (which resulted in a few scuffles, as well as a win for EBHS). For our rematch, played at CHS in the Spring of 1974, we agreed (with EBHS) to play with Irv as a ref. If I recall correctly, he was there with a black & white striped shirt and a whistle!

Stork tells the story that in Arizona or N.M. (?), someone (Andy Magruer) set up a game with refs. A much travelled video guy (he filmed tons of games, and travelled all over in his RV) fellow by the name of Lee (can't recall his last name) actually filmed this game. Lee (or Stork?) tells the story that the ref (might it have been Andy himself?) called a catching foul, and that both defense and offense got up to argue, that it had been a clean block. But the agreement ahead of time was that there was no arguing with the ref's calls, and so the call stood. Lee claims to have the entire incident on tape. Lee told me the story in the the spring of 1984 or 85 -- I can't recall when the game actually was.

Sholom Simon (aka Eric)
--------------------------

As I recall the EBHS games, they had the state high jump champ who was their deep threat, but who also liked to foul (as did their entire team). Being a pretty small team with the exception of John Sherman and myself (180 was big then - at 40 lbs heavier now that seems small...), we got pushed around. The second game that Spring was the state championship played behind CHS. We beat Teaneck I think in the semis, and were tied in reg with EBHS in the final at 20-20, but won 25-20. I do remember Irv reffing and Dave Leiwant doing some subtle coaching. Joe B may have been there as well. The game was a lot cleaner obviously.

Marc Hirsch

I am surprised that Lehigh doesn't have a web page... anyway, I am going to try to track down one or two of the MIA's. Also, I actually formed the team in the Fall of 1974, but our first game was the following Spring vs. Jim Powers and Penn State (which, sad to say, I remember as a 20-9 loss in 20mph winds gusting to 40 at LU). That Fall we created the first LU golf course, using most of the entire campus. Some really wild "holes"... one over the top of trees to a blind hole.

Marc Hirsch
June 2002

Here's some more information on the great David "Buddha" Meyer, who was a year ahead of me at Columbia College (Buddha designed the CC team shirts to be identical to the old CHS t-shirts). Dave was, in fact, at LSE for a "Junior Year Abroad" (75-76 academic year). He told me that, while there, he practiced Freestyle in one of the parks and was as a consequence interviewed by the BBC on what he described as "the British equivalent of 60 Minutes." On the broadcast he did a series of Buddhaesque stalls, delays and catches. During the intro to the segment the announcer said to the audience "I'm going to introduce you to someone who can make a Frisbee talk." This, Dave thought, was very cool.

Buddha founded the Columbia College team that continues to this day. In 1977, his senior year, we made it to the East Coast Championships in Amherst where, alas, in the first round we lost to Penn State (the eventual tournament winners). I have on my office wall a beautiful silk-screened poster from that tournament, featuring a winged Ultimate player streaking across a starry night to catch a Saturn-like disc. It's a constant reminder to me of his friendship.

Dave suffered a cerebral aneurysm on September 29, 1978 and fell into a coma in which he remained until his death on August 13, 1983. The Columbia College "Old Blue" of Buddha's era hold an annual alumni game on the weekend prior to Labor Day. We talk about him every year and ensure that he is not forgotten. He was one of a kind.

Best regards to all.

Mark 'Schotz' Silverschotz
July 2002

It's amazing what one can find when he cleans his garage. I never realized I was such a packrat. What I did find was a stack of papers and news articles, along with notes, on my early days with Ultimate (I also found a bunch of Frisbie pie pans I had forgotten I had). I would like to share some of that info here.

I started playing Ultimate in 1971 at Staples High in Westport. By the way, your site lists Dan Buckley as a CHS grad - he actually went to Staples High, and the way I know that is that he was the one who dragged me out onto that field behind Building 9 that fall afternoon.

I could not find any documentation to support this, but I believe that Al Jolley went to CHS (but didn't play), and this is how he learned of the game, and brought it to Staples High.

Staples won the first Connecticut Interscholastic game against Weston High School 24-9, on April 7, 1973. We were all dressed in our "stylish" uniforms of blue long-sleeved turtlenecks with homemade iron-on lettering (with a big "S" in Frisbee, for Staples) and blue jeans. Boy, those uniforms got uncomfortable on a hot day!

Our second game against an opponent was with none other than Columbia High School, in the first Interstate, Interscholastic Ultimate game, on April 14, 1973, at Staples. We did win that game 18-8, though there was some debate as to what version of the rules we were playing by, and what defined a "sideline" (we played by the original "no lateral boundaries" rules - which I did find a reference to in the Official Rules 1971-1972 pamphlet). I remember to this day on how we were in awe of this weird yet effective throw that this one CHS player had that we nicknamed the Jersey throw. That player was the late, great Buddha. Several weeks later, CHS came back (along with 4 other missing players, including Dave Leiwant), and mopped the field with us.

We did get some good publicity out of these games, not only in the local press and the newswires, but also from the National Observer - where, when demonstrating Ultimate to the reporter, Bob Kaye went up to catch a pass, and came down wrong and broke his ankle.

When Dan Buckley and I went to UConn in the fall of 1974, we did put a team together (my incentive was to use it as an excuse to skip an Economics lecture). We formed the leadership of the team as a "triumvirate", with Dan, myself and Roger Roach as the first three in the position. One note on a previous email from Dan - If I was the spark, then he was the fuel, he was the one who made the team "hesive". Thanks to Dave Leiwant (at this time at Yale), we had our first Intercollegiate game against Yale in April 12, 1975, which we lost 10-31. UConn's second game was against Wesleyan and Bob Lacy, which we also lost 10-14. Our lowest scoring game during my time at UConn was 8-11 against MIT in what seemed to be a hurricane. Our most impressive upset occurred on the weekend of October 29-31, 1976, when after losing to Princeton at home, and Glassboro away, we beat Rutgers East in Glassboro, and the next day beat Rutgers West 24-21 in New Brunswick, thus ending their 48 game winning streak.

Mark Silverschotz in a previous email talked about Columbia losing to Penn State in the '77 East Coast Championships - they lost by only two points (15-13) in 30 MPH winds. We (UConn) lost to Penn State in the next round.

Anyone remember the "doughnuts" at Hampshire College in the '70's? That is the first place I remember running into people who pierced various body parts (now fashionable 25 years later), and a co-ed sauna. And their hospitality was second to none.

It's good to see contributions here from my various former Staples cohorts, including Dan Buckley, Ron Kaufman, Greg Mead, Dave Abrams, Bob Lacy - This is quite a testament to the early influence Al Jolley had on the game of Ultimate.

Ed Davis
Jul;y 2002

I note that Mark Silverschotz (with Columbia) and Ed Davis (with UConn) both commented on playing Penn State at the 1977 Easterns. I played for that Penn State team and remember both of those games very well. That was one tremendous tournament with close games from beginning to end! It was also probably the last major tournament that was played with Master Frisbees.

The game with Columbia was played in a gale force wind and I think we scored only one up wind goal the entire game - and that was the difference in a 15-13 score. I also remember that Columbia had Peter Bloeme, the reigning World Frisbee Champion in addition to Mark and Buddha on their roster. That Columbia team could have been quite intimidating for the bunch of "other sports jocks" that made up the Penn State team, but not that Penn State group. Columbia led the game at half-time, 9-8, and only a furious comeback made it possible for Penn State to win that game.

The game with UConn was a tremendous, high energy game that ended in a one point 30-29 Penn State win, only because time ran out before UConn could score again (ah, remember the urgency of stop-timed games!). Once again Penn State trailed at half-time, 17-15, only to score just enough in the second half to win the game. I remember that game as one where neither team's defense could stop the other offense. Both offenses
relied heavily on high speed forwards running to long throws, with just enough disc handling in mid-field to set up a long throw. It was bombs away with the constant sound of the "zing" that comes along with throwing Masters!

The semi-final game was played against a valiant, but short handed Bucknell team that had many injuries to key players from their first two games. I remember that Bucknell's top two or three players (one's name was Harvey) all had fairly serious leg or ankle injuries and tried to play, but tried to play anyway. That game was also very close, with a Penn State lead at 9-8 at half-time stretched to a 20-15 Penn State win.

The final against Hampshire was one more close game for Penn State. I remember we got ahead early (12-9 at half-time) and then had to hold off a furious charge by Hampshire, led, I think, by Andy MacGruer, for a 24-22 final score. I remember going into a stall game with about 2 or 3 minutes left and just holding onto the disc thru short passes and dumps.

Our experience at that tournament was just fantastic. Four wins over three days by a total of 10 points (5 of which were in one game!). It is hard to imagine a closer Ultimate tournament from from the first round games to the finals. Almost all of the games where decided by 5 goals or less, including an epic quarterfinal between Cornell and the reigning champion Rutgers that went to two overtimes with Cornell prevailing 28-27. I would love to hear from Jon Cohn, Irv Kalb, Don Cain and others what they remember about that game sometime.

For that matter, I would also like to hear the recollections of others who played in that tournament. We've put together a Yahoo group for the 1974-77 Penn State teams that were founded by Jim Powers and are trying to make plans for a reunion sometime -- maybe Sarasota in October?

Fondly going thru the memories............

Andy Klein
January 2004

The "Cleveland Frisbee Club" was started in the summer of 1975, when I returned home from learning the game at Penn State from Jim "King" Powers, and contacted the newspaper (The Plain Dealer). They put a one-sentence blurb in Saturday's paper with my phone number. Paul Hart, a local architect, contacted me (woke me up early [11:30 am] saying he saw my name in the paper) and helped immeasurably with organizational efforts, as did Chris Ball, who was on the Oberlin College team. While we were primarily based on the East Side, we needed the efforts of Westsiders as well. Rick "Razz" Jones, John Kennedy, and a number of others (memory fails) from Berea helped and frequently made the long drive across town so we had enough to play.

I remembered we recruited a number of ex-football players, who wanted to "break for the goal line" after catching a pass. I also remember telling a particularly forward-thinking player not to throw an upside-down pass (later known as a "hammer") because few of the players on our team could not catch it. We argued and he left the team and I have no idea where he ended up. Too bad - you were right, buddy!

Michael Broughton
July 2002

Emails from Founders (from oldest to newest)

Emails from Founders
(from oldest to newest)